Australia's foreign intelligence chief is to retire after five years in the job. To reflect on his time running Australia’s foreign spy service, Paul Symon sat down with the ABC’s global affairs editor John Lyons. They discussed some of his most anxious moments as chief the war in Ukraine as well as potential conflict with China and where Australia allegiances would lie. With the stakes high the outgoing spy chief has also revealed what qualities the intelligence service is looking for in their recruits.